OK, so this has been a pretty intense email dialogue with my dad...I certainly don't claim to have this church-state stuff figured out, and this exchange has been a helpful forum to try to work some of these issues out. Comments are VERY welcome....
It all started with this email about legislation regarding homosexual rights that is being put forth by the State Congress of California....
What follows is the dialogue that ensued.
August 23, 2006
String of Anti-Family Bills Pending in California
The Washington Briefing - 2006 Values Voter Summit - September 22-24, 2006Your help needed to convince Gov. Schwarzenegger to wield the veto pen and preserve family values.
Dear Douglas,
Lawmakers bent on promoting homosexuality in the public schools have managed to advance four legislative items that seek to undermine the foundation of family values. Your action is needed to ensure Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoes them all.
SB 1437, which could wind up on Schwarzenegger's desk shortly, requires that textbooks and curriculum reflect the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community in a positive light.
Ron Prentice, executive director of the California Family Council, said it goes beyond just the normalization of homosexuality — it would teach that people are born gay.
"This bill clearly attempts to enforce the homosexual lifestyle as normal and as immutable as race or color," he said.
American Family Filter - Protect your children from trash on the Internet. Spearheaded by openly gay Sen. Sheila Kuehl, the bill passed the state Senate in May. Despite the fact that Schwarzenegger immediately announced he would veto the bill if it reached his desk, the state Assembly passed the bill 46 -31 Monday.
SB 1441, which grants special protections to homosexuals, has passed both houses of the Legislature and now awaits either Schwarzenegger's signature or his veto.
If passed, the law would forbid any organization that receives government funding from portraying homosexuality, bisexuality and transsexuality in a negative light. Experts say such a measure would create conflict between church and the state because it would require faith-based organizations — should they wish to remain eligible for certain funds — to contradict their deeply held beliefs.
Another bill, AB 1056, has passed the Assembly and is pending in the Senate. It could come up for a vote by the end of the week.
The bill would create and allocate special funds for a Tolerance Education Pilot Program to promote learning about "tolerance and intergroup relations." This will include tolerance for "actual or perceived gender." The training would be included within the social-science curriculum frameworks and would teach tolerance for the homosexual lifestyle.
And then there's AB 606, which has also passed the Assembly and could also get a Senate floor vote this week.
The bill requires local school districts to "establish and publicize an anti-discrimination and anti-harassment policy that prohibits discrimination and harassment based on specified characteristics, including, but not limited to, actual or perceived gender identity and sexual orientation."
What eventually happens in the Legislature won't just affect California, either. Many states select textbooks that have come through the filters of California and other Legislatures look to California law as a template.
Take Action
Tell Gov. Schwarzenegger, politely but firmly, to veto all four of these anti-family bills when and if they reach his desk.
J: Call me a liberal....but what good is it going to do to restrict the rights of human beings because they are homosexual?
D: Who said anything about restrict? Be careful in your interpretation of these special, new "rights" being bestowed on this group of deviants.
Why should they have broader rights than you and me? Should they be a "protected class?" A minority? Like the disabled or handicapped (maybe there should be an equal number of rainbow-colored parking places next to the handicapped spaces)? Should perverse lifestyle choices gain protected class status now? Should a "trans-gender" individual be rewarded with protected class status? Do you want your children indoctrinated at school (in contradiction to what he/she is learning from you the parent, and your church, and your bible) to believe that homosexuality and trans-gender surgery is "normative" and "special" and "blessed?"
You should teach your children to love and pray for the perverse and depraved, but should you be forced to be perceived by your child as the odd-man-out and deviant because of the very biblical values you are attempting to instill? That is the direction we're headed. By the time you have children you will be weirdo. You will be persecuted for your belief in God and your biblical worldviews.
Every fallen empire in history embraced all sorts of perversions near its fall. From homosexuality, to the "games" which threw humans in with lions to enjoy the "sport" of watching them be eaten, to glutony, to abuse of power and wealth, to blurring the lines between right and wrong followed by turning the two upside down. The same factions today that are promoting these social agendas are leading the attacks against God Himself, crosses (like in San Diego), displays of the ten commandments in public places, God's mention in the Pledge, "In God we Trust" on buildings and currencies, etc., etc. Couple the eradication of God from our society through political correctness and brazen promotion of these "alternative" lifestyles, and judicial activism, and you will certainly dive head first into relativistic, post modern society in which there is no good and evil, no right and wrong and supreme humanism and selfishness. What a marvelous job this faction has done to shift the far left into the center during the past 50 years. Kudos to them.
Personally, I think the battle is lost until Jesus returns. The movement is too pervasive, and the tiny minority of 50 years ago is now the majority.
Your comments?
J: Who says that we are all better off if America remains the "empire" that it has become? Throughout church history, the church has always flourished MOST when it is most persecuted. I don't think that preserving the pseudo-religiousity or morality of Christianity in our maistream politics is necessarily the God-honoring way to go. You know that I continue to struggle with the pacifism thing, but let's just pretend that Jesus did make a pretty strong case against violence, and we are to follow His lead. Then Bush is presenting a double-ethic by using his Christian morality both to strengthen family values and to obliterate other human beings.
If most of the nation happens to be for an increase in the rights of homosexuals, then as a DEMOCRACY, it is the government's job to obey their wishes. I don't think that says anything about the strength or weakness of the church, I think it is an age-old reminder about the depravity of all humanity----good ol' Genesis 3. Even more of a reason why Christians need to be working on the strength within their own families, and searching out alternative educational options if they don't want their children to hear all sides of the story. Personally, going to Yale and hearing lots of wackadoo theology and politics, I found it rather enlightening to see firsthand how BANKRUPT most of those ideas were. Perhaps it's valuable for people to hear all sides, only then to discover that Christianity makes me most sense after all.
I just don't think that it's necessarily the government's job to regulate morality. If the majority of the nation or any jurisdiction wants society to look a certain way, isn't it the government's job to listen to them? Maybe America needs to follow a little bit more in the steps of Scandinavian countries, for exanple, and most of Western Europe, which now has sub-replacement population growth rates in order to see where all of this is headed. Maybe we need to see first-hand that the decisions we are making as a nation, despite so much "culture of life" rhetoric, are actually anti-life. But I'm not going to be afraid of legislation that doesn't perfectly reflect Christian values. If I wanted Christian legislation, I would become Amish and create a separate society. We elected a president who was a Christian, and now we're seeing how that plays out----by his policy decisions and the extent to which they are informed by his Christianity. We elected A DEMOCRAT, probably NON-CHRISTIAN governor, and it's all well and good to try to lobby that he "protect family values," but I'm not going to be overly surprised if some of this legislation passes. And I think that if it does, it will give the CHURCH even more of an opportunity to respond and figure out how it wants posterity to be raised.
Thoughts?
D: under current academic policy under the liberal agenda, they CANNOT hear all sides of the story. only the theory of evolution by Darwin (as fact I might add), but NOT creationism or intelligent design (as it is called these days). don't be deceived to believe education is fair and balanced in the classroom. same with homosexual, bisexual and transgender lifestyles, that will now be taught as normative, but teachers cannot teach about lifestyles advocated in the bible.
check out the amoral lifestyles of these countries before you use them as examples that should be held up as societal icons. deviant lifestyles run rampant here. they are macrocosms of the "anything goes" lifestyle of san francisco.
wasn't our country founded on Christian principals and values? What do you see as demonstrations of improving morals and values in the US over the past 200 years? Can you see the parellel between the elimination of Judeo-Christian values over the past 200 years and the devolution of any moral fiber at all?
Arnold ran as a Republican.
you must personalize these issues and place yourself in the position of a parent of an 7 and 9 year old in 2006. what do you want your children exposed to in public school? what do you want textbooks to include or exclude? what value system do you want them learning from, the deviant? or the Godly? Trust me when I tell you that swimming upstream and against the current in all facets of daily life including school will be repugnant to you one day. Trust me when I tell you that your core values and convictions will no longer waver. Uncertainty will melt into rock-solid certainty when your child comes home at 6 or 7 yrs old and questions your biblical values because the teacher said she is a bisexual woman (or man) and how wonderful it is and how students can be expelled for expressing any viewpoint opposing homosexual, bisexual or transgender lifestyles.
this is important for you to understand. you may be as uncertain and struggle all you want now, but when it comes to the values your children embrace one day...your struggle will change directions...radically.
one more point to ponder. just 3 years ago the debate revolved around gay and lesbian rights exclusively, to now the inclusion of bisexual and transgender "rights" and "discrimination." Think about it Jen, there is an incredibly focused, brilliant and organized conspiracy bringing in ANY deviant lifestyle into the ranks of the "oppressed." In just 3 short years! you can relate to how centrist wacky agendas become as political correctness and satan's thread weaves its way through society. thoughts?
J: that's my whole point---maybe only after following in the footsteps of those countries will we see the FRUIT that comes from such choices
D: i don't know about you, but i don't want a government that sticks its finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing, then govern by popularity. doesn't someone/some body have to define right and wrong? soon, beastiality and even more perverse "orientations" (today's buzzword for permissable deviant behaviors) will be included in the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transsexual movement and the government you seem to advocate for will continue to legitimize and embrace these "oppressed" people with more and more "rights." Don't think it can't happen...its already happening with the inclusion of bisexuals and transsexuals as "mainstream" and "victims" of "discrimination" in the same category as gay/lesbians in the blink of an eye. 20 years ago the term "gay" didn't exist. it was homosexual man or lesbian woman, period. "gay" was brought in to the modern glossary just like "orientation," more recently to promote and soften the immorality of this agenda. as disgusting and perverse as you might consider beastiality today, in 20 years it may be protected and included in the umbrella of "rights" that you and I don't even enjoy under the new legislation, legislated by the children of today's legislators.
J: do you think it is the government's right to regulate morality?
what do we gain by having our government make legislation that reflects Christian values? is it the government's job to tell people how they ought to live, or is it the church's job to teach a way of life that is contrary to other suggested ways of life? as i said before, history shows that the church flourished most under times of its most severe persecution.....perpetuating this facade of pseudo-morality in our country (aka morality not grounded on the principles of Christ) conveniently masks the fact that there is actually a radical difference between doing right because it's what God intends, and doing right because the government will punish you if you don't. I don't necessarily think it's beneficial for the church if those two things are conflated. Then you end up with secular moralists who don't "need" God, because they think they are living the optimal life without him---this is EXACTLY the story of my friend Zach. It is only by seeing that godless morality breaks down that he is finally seeing the difference between Christians and non-Christians. Point being, perhaps the larger the divide between Christians and the rest of society, the more people will begin to see the POWER AND FRUIT of the Christian way of life. I also don't see how it reflects the love of Christ to ostracize "sinners," ie those choosing alternate lifestyles. Yes, yes, I know----love the sinner, hate the sin. But how exactly are we loving the sinners? If they feel like Christians are pushing an agenda that makes them feel marginalized and unaccepted/unlovable, what then will draw them to the love of Christ?
Perhaps we need to revisit the proper and improper ovelaps between church and state. It seems curious that the country has seldom had a non-Christian president (whatever that means), and yet how much of the American populus actually believes in Jesus? It's like this rule or norm that the President must be a Christian, but not because anyone actually cares what that means. People want to go on and live their lives, and they want the government to do what is best for them. And it seems that all of this allows the church to quietly slip into the background, letting the state do what it should be doing----presenting a radical alternative to the way of the world. And yet, because that isn't the state's job, the radicality of who Jesus is gets lost in translation, and homosexuals, for example, end up with this image of God as wrathful judge. If the church is going to let the state say who God is, it better be prepared for some corrupted theology...
